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EdhelwenEmileia's Forum :: Books and Movies :: Lord of the Rings :: The Ivy Bush: Old Gaffer's Inn :: Sorcery in LOTR?

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Edhelwen Emileia
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Sorcery in LOTR?
« Thread Started on Apr 20, 2005, 12:35am »

What is the "magic" done by various characters in LOTR, such as Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron? Is it sorcery? And if not, then what is it? Is it simply magic? Is there a difference in what one character does, vs. another character? Also, what's the difference between the actions (as far as magic or sorcery goes) of the characters as Tolkein portrayed them, vs. how Peter Jackson portrayed them?

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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #1 on Oct 24, 2005, 4:05pm »

I think that Gandalf, used his magic for good, hence it is not sorcery. Sauron, on the other hand, uses his magic for evil, making it sorcery. In the Sil (I think) the Necromancer is a dark magician, and Necromancer literally means sorcerer, so it is sorcery.

That's my two-malda worth.

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Edhelwen Emileia
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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #2 on Oct 30, 2005, 6:25pm »

So the difference is in how it is used, whether for good or for evil, you think?

By the way, I believe the Necromancer is referred to in The Hobbit only, and the Necromancer = Sauron.

What do you think of what Saruman does?

Question 1: Is there a difference between magic and sorcery? If so, what do you say it is?

Question 2: Do you see any difference regarding this subject in the way the various characters are portrayed in the movies vs. in the books?

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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #3 on Oct 31, 2005, 6:57pm »

Question 1: Is there a difference between magic and sorcery? If so, what do you say it is?

Answer: Yes there is. I think that sorcery calls upon demons and spirits to accomplish the task, while magic is like the Force, it is not the use of spirits, but just the the use of physics to accomplish something.

Question 2: Do you see any difference regarding this subject in the way the various characters are portrayed in the movies vs. in the books?

Answer: Yes. In the books The Palantir is just a crystal ball, so to speak, and in the movie it is has that weird swirling mist. Peter Jackson said himself that the swirling mist represented the evil spirit of Sauron. When you put spirits into the mix you get into the aspect of sorcery, and hence, evil. Saruman in the book is a wizard like Gandalf, and has the same powers. In the movie, it seems to me like he has other powers, somewhat like the dark side has it's own powers (force choke, lightning, etc.).

Does that help you?

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Edhelwen Emileia
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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #4 on Dec 6, 2005, 12:40am »

I'm not looking for help. Just opinions.

So... Are all spirits evil, then?

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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #5 on Dec 6, 2005, 1:06pm »

No. There is the 'Holy Spirit' or Holy Ghost' talked about in the Bible, that is part of the Holy Trinity. God is not evil, hence the Holy Spirit is not evil. Personally i would say that there is more Sorcery in Harry Potter than in LotR.

I've said enough. What do you think?

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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #6 on Apr 11, 2006, 3:16pm »

I'm waiting for EE's Humble opinion...

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Edhelwen Emileia
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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #7 on Apr 12, 2006, 1:33am »

Erm... I don't think all spirits are evil. I just asked that question because of what you said here:

Quote:

When you put spirits into the mix you get into the aspect of sorcery, and hence, evil.

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Argetlam
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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #8 on Apr 12, 2006, 5:14pm »

Quote:

I want you to answer that.

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Edhelwen Emileia
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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #9 on Apr 12, 2006, 11:41pm »

According to dictionary.com, it would seem that magic is a broad word to describe supernatural effects, whereas sorcery makes use of dark spirits. In Gandalf's case, I think he is using the power of Illuvatar for his tricks such as the fireworks, stopping the Balrog, etc. Saruman might once have used the same power, but it would seem that he turned instead to the dark spirits such as Sauron and Morgoth for his power. Sauron, however, being more spirit than flesh, I think, had more of that power within himself, I believe, rather than drawing it from elsewhere, although it may well be that he learned much from Morgoth.

As far as the difference between Tolkien's writings and Jackson's portral goes... I'm not sure. I need to re-read the books again. But off the top of my head, I want to say that Jackson's portrayal is a bit more like sorcery than Tolkien. But as I said, I'm not sure on that one.

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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #10 on Apr 13, 2006, 2:29am »

Personally, I don't see any difference between LOTR and HP, though the latter seems to promote more of the occultic elements. However, it is curious to see how differing one fundementalist opinion is to the next: Some deem LOTR as okay but HP as pure evil, others think they are both ungodly, and there are actually those who think LOTR is bad but HP is just fine. Throw SW, with its mystical "Force," into the mix, and you have one elaborate web of disparate views.

In the end, however, these are all simply stories. Tales of sorcery and witchcraft are as old as the human species itself and are an inherent part of literature. It doesn't say much for the power of God or one's devotion to Him if one is so easily swayed or influenced by works of ficticious entertainment.

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Re: Sorcery in LOTR?
« Reply #11 on Apr 18, 2006, 3:23pm »

I'm in the "HP is purely evil" category. SW and LoTR are okay.

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